Discussion:
The Apostle Paul's "Misquote of Isaiah 59:20"
(too old to reply)
b***@toast.net
2009-04-01 16:23:22 UTC
Permalink
"Misquoting Isaiah 59:20-21"

The Lord's Apostle Paul (Acts 9:15)

in Romans 11:26, referring to Israel's future Restoration from her
current state of blindness to the future greatest People who have ever
been on the earth, "quotes" Isaiah 59:20 as:

"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer
will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;"

However, in the NKJV, that passage reads,

"The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from
transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.

And the Tanach reads,

"He shall come as redeemer to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn back
from sin."

And Snow's version is similar to the latter two, where he accuses Paul
as above.

There is a SERIOUS difference in the above Romans 11:26, and the three
OT "quotations." The difference is: Who is the subject of the action?
The action of the turning from sin. Or, Who is the active party:
Jacob, or the Deliverer?

In Romans, the Subject is the Deliverer; HE turns away the
ungodliness. He is the active party.

But in the lower quotations of Isaiah 59:20, those in Jacob are the
subject; THEY are the active party.

One of the two is FLAT OUT WRONG! To determine which, we need to try
to get closer to the original Scripture, not flat out declare another
accusation against Paul, with no discussion whatever.

The translations from the Hebrew, such as the Tanach and the NKJV
above, and the KJV, and Snow's version, come from what is known as
the Masoretic. The Masoretic was produced around 700 - 1000 AD.

Romans 11:26 IS NOT A QUOTATION FROM THE MASORETIC. Making Snow's
accusation utterly false. Paul IS NOT "MISQUOTING." Most of the
"quotations" (I put this in quotes, because the subject of quotations
itself is very complicated and involved --- most so-called
"quotations" are not quotations at all --- almost none of them,
actually) from the OT in the NT are not from the Hebrew, far less from
the Masoretic, but from the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a Greek
translation from ancient Hebrew, and some Aramaic texts, done about
270 BC.

Besides the fact that the Septuagint (LXX) was endorsed by the Lord
Jesus and the Apostles, it has at least two more great advantages:

1. It is from a much earlier time; therefore by scholars who would be
much more familiar with the original Hebrew than the Masoretes would
have been.

2. It is from a time before Christ, and therefore free from the
anti-Messianic bias of the Jews since that time.

A good English translation from the Septuagint (from the Online Bible
software) of Isaiah 59:20 is

And the deliverer shall come for Sion's sake, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob.

which matches Paul's "quotation."

Further, this also matches the Theology of the Bible, whereas the
Masoretic contradicts it. Throughout the Bible the teaching is that
"the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who
can know it?"

Or, "can the leopard change his spots? Or the Cushite the color of
his skin? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to evil" ---
Jer. 13:23. Man, on his own, CANNOT DO GOOD! Whether Jew or Gentile.

"Behold, even the Heavens are not pure in His sight! How much more
abominable and filthy is man, that drinketh in iniquity like water,
day after day!"

I can testify that this is my experience; and it is yours as well. I
know what kinda guy you are: you're the same kinda guy I am! As Peter
said at the Jerusalem conference,

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the
neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to
bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we
shall be saved, even as they."

No honest person who perceives this would EVER blaspheme a man like
Paul, who when he was in Athens went into literal paroxysms from his
concern for the unsaved heathen there with their idols and ignorant
philosophies.

As in the NT every where asserted that man is incapable of
"repentance,"

"with man this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Or, no man can come unto Me except the Father, Who hath sent Me, draw
him."

Israel's restoration is going to be solely of the Lord, just as Paul
correctly "quotes" Isaiah 59:20, and contrary to the way the above
Hebrew renderings have it.

And the description of how that's going to come about is Prophesied in
Ezekiel 37-40.

Bob
Christ Died to Save You
guardian Snow
2009-04-01 17:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@toast.net
"Misquoting Isaiah 59:20-21"
The Lord's Apostle Paul (Acts 9:15)
in Romans 11:26, referring to Israel's future Restoration from her
current state of blindness to the future greatest People who have ever
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer
will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;"
 However, in the NKJV, that passage reads,
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from
transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.
And the Tanach reads,
"He shall come as redeemer to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn back
from sin."
And Snow's version is similar to the latter two, where he accuses Paul
as above.
There is a SERIOUS difference in the above Romans 11:26, and the three
OT "quotations."  The difference is: Who is the subject of the action?
Jacob, or the Deliverer?
In Romans, the Subject is the Deliverer; HE turns away the
ungodliness. He is the active party.
But in the lower quotations of Isaiah 59:20, those in Jacob are the
subject; THEY are the active party.
One of the two is FLAT OUT WRONG!  To determine which, we need to try
to get closer to the original Scripture, not flat out declare another
accusation against Paul, with no discussion whatever.
The translations from the Hebrew, such as the Tanach and the NKJV
above, and the KJV, and Snow's version,  come from what is known as
the Masoretic.  The Masoretic was produced around 700 - 1000 AD.
Romans 11:26 IS NOT A QUOTATION FROM THE MASORETIC.  Making Snow's
accusation utterly false. Paul IS NOT "MISQUOTING." Most of the
"quotations" (I put this in quotes, because the subject of quotations
itself is very complicated and involved --- most so-called
"quotations" are not quotations at all --- almost none of  them,
actually) from the OT in the NT are not from the Hebrew, far less from
the Masoretic, but from the Septuagint.  The Septuagint is a Greek
translation from ancient Hebrew, and some Aramaic texts, done about
270 BC.
Confirmation of the proper teachings is found in John:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:22 “You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know,
because the deliverance is of the Yehuḏim.

Deliverance is of Jacob house, the gentiles are clearly rejected
unless they join themselves to Israel. You can also feel free to
reference these many other passages:

1Ps. 147:19, Isa. 2:3, Isa. 14:1, Isa. 56:6-8, Ezek. 47:22-23, Zech.
2:10-11, Zech. 8:23, Rev. 21:12 & 24.

The new covenant was clearly with Israel and the Jews.

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares [Yahweh] יהוה, “when I
shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the
house of Yehuḏah

That's Israel and Judah:)

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake! Put on your strength, O Tsiyon, put on your
garments of splendour, O Yerushalayim, the set-apart city! For no more
do the uncircumcised and the unclean come into you.

You can reject the prophets and Yehoshua and follow after another that
came after them... a Roman from Tarsus and that is your choice and
your religion.

Eze 44:9 ‘Thus said the Master [Yahweh] יהוה, “No son of a foreigner,
uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, comes into My set-
apart place, even any son of a foreigner who is among the children of
Yisra’ĕl.

I do not tell you this to condemn you.. only to inform you brother. I
wish you well with your walk of faith.

Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- join

If someday they say of me that in my work I have contributed something
to the welfare and happiness of my fellow man, I shall be satisfied.
George Westinghouse

http://www.e-sword.net/  Free bible software
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua/web/RNKJV.zip <--
free
download of the Restored Names King James Version

A beast does not know that he is a beast, and the nearer a man gets to
being a beast, the less he knows it.
George MacDonald
singin4free
2009-04-02 12:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@toast.net
"Misquoting Isaiah 59:20-21"
The Lord's Apostle Paul (Acts 9:15)
in Romans 11:26, referring to Israel's future Restoration from her
current state of blindness to the future greatest People who have ever
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer
will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;"
 However, in the NKJV, that passage reads,
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from
transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.
And the Tanach reads,
"He shall come as redeemer to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn back
from sin."
And Snow's version is similar to the latter two, where he accuses Paul
as above.
There is a SERIOUS difference in the above Romans 11:26, and the three
OT "quotations."  The difference is: Who is the subject of the action?
Jacob, or the Deliverer?
In Romans, the Subject is the Deliverer; HE turns away the
ungodliness. He is the active party.
But in the lower quotations of Isaiah 59:20, those in Jacob are the
subject; THEY are the active party.
One of the two is FLAT OUT WRONG!  To determine which, we need to try
to get closer to the original Scripture, not flat out declare another
accusation against Paul, with no discussion whatever.
The translations from the Hebrew, such as the Tanach and the NKJV
above, and the KJV, and Snow's version,  come from what is known as
the Masoretic.  The Masoretic was produced around 700 - 1000 AD.
Romans 11:26 IS NOT A QUOTATION FROM THE MASORETIC.  Making Snow's
accusation utterly false. Paul IS NOT "MISQUOTING." Most of the
"quotations" (I put this in quotes, because the subject of quotations
itself is very complicated and involved --- most so-called
"quotations" are not quotations at all --- almost none of  them,
actually) from the OT in the NT are not from the Hebrew, far less from
the Masoretic, but from the Septuagint.  The Septuagint is a Greek
translation from ancient Hebrew, and some Aramaic texts, done about
270 BC.
Besides the fact that the Septuagint (LXX) was endorsed by the Lord
1. It is from a much earlier time; therefore by scholars who would be
much more familiar with the original Hebrew than the Masoretes would
have been.
2. It is from a time before Christ, and therefore free from the
anti-Messianic bias of the Jews since that time.
A good English translation from the Septuagint (from the Online Bible
software) of Isaiah 59:20 is
And the deliverer shall come for Sion's sake, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob.
which matches Paul's "quotation."
Further, this also matches the Theology of the Bible, whereas the
Masoretic contradicts it.  Throughout the Bible the teaching is that
"the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who
can know it?"
Or, "can the leopard change his spots?  Or the Cushite the color of
his skin?  Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to evil" ---
Jer. 13:23.  Man, on his own, CANNOT DO GOOD! Whether Jew or Gentile.
"Behold, even the Heavens are not pure in His sight!  How much more
abominable and filthy is man, that drinketh in iniquity like water,
day after day!"
I can testify that this is my experience; and it is yours as well.  I
know what kinda guy you are: you're the same kinda guy I am!  As Peter
said at the Jerusalem conference,
Acts 15:10  "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the
neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to
bear?
11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we
shall be saved, even as they."
No honest person who perceives this would EVER blaspheme a man like
Paul, who when he was in Athens went into literal paroxysms from his
concern for the unsaved heathen there with their idols and ignorant
philosophies.
As in the NT every where asserted that man is incapable of
"repentance,"
"with man this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Or, no man can come unto Me except the Father, Who hath sent Me, draw
him."
Israel's restoration is going to be solely of the Lord, just as Paul
correctly "quotes" Isaiah 59:20, and contrary to the way the above
Hebrew renderings have it.
And the description of how that's going to come about is Prophesied in
Ezekiel 37-40.
Bob
Christ Died to Save You
Bob, thanks for this I think it is very insightful.

Here I am addressing Snow's response.
Snow's reply seems to be saying that John 4:22 indicates that
salvation can only come from being under the Jewish Law. He states
that to be saved all Gentiles must join themselves to Israel. But he
neglects to draw from the context of the passage he is quoting. He
forgets that Yeshua was there speaking to the Samaritan woman (a
Gentile) and in the very next verse (John 4:23) he tells her that soon
it will not matter where people worship (not on her mountain or in
Jerusalem), but they that worship God will worship him in Spirit and
in Truth. This lines up squarely with what Paul says in Php 3:3:

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and
rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. "

Therefore, to be saved we must join ourselves not to earthly Israel
but to Yeshua the Messiah, by whom we become children of God and heirs
of the promises to Abraham.

The salvation of all Israel in the future is prophesied in many places
which point to a turning to Yeshua their Messiah. For example, in
Zechariah 12:10 it says: "I will pour on the house of David, and on
the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication;
and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn
for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for
him, as one grieves for his firstborn." (WEB)

And thus the children of Abraham in both the Spirit and the flesh will
be united by faith in Yeshua the Messiah. The redeemed of the Lord
will be from every nation tribe and tongue. And the restoration of
Israel to faith in Yeshua, as Paul signals in Romans 11:15 is "life
from the dead":
"For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what
would their acceptance be, but life from the dead?"

As Yeshua said in John 4:22, "salvation is of the Jews", because out
from Jerusalem came the Word of the Lord for the entire world via the
apostles of Yeshua, as it was prophesied in Isaiah 2:3. But now,
"everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

This is not a joining to the Law of Moses, although we know the Law
is good and the Law is holy. But now by faith if we are saved, that
Law is written in our hearts and we live by the Spirit, according to
Jeremiah 31:33: "But this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in
their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be
their God, and they shall be my people.

Salvation is a joining by faith to the Father of Yeshua the Messiah
"in whom all the families in heaven and earth are named." (Eph 3:15).
The ordinances have not passed away but are now written in the hearts
of believers who are made alive by the Holy Spirit to do good works
and glorify God. And as John saw people from every nation tribe and
tongue singing glory to God, so we should understand that these people
were there because of faith in Yeshua.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness
from Jacob
guardian Snow
2009-04-02 16:26:25 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 2, 11:42 pm, singin4free <***@gmail.com> wrote:
What I find fascinating is that the names of YHWH and his son Yehoshua
are removed from your scriptures completely… yet you claim that you
version is inspired. The fact is that the only name properly
translated in your version is Satan, so whose scripture does that make
it?
But.. to address your many, many misquotes…
Post by singin4free
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and
rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. "
Prophets disagree and you have a choice in which you follow friend.
Eze 44:9 ‘Thus said the Master [Yahweh] יהוה, “No son of a foreigner,
uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, comes into My set-
apart place, even any son of a foreigner who is among the children of
Yisra’ĕl.
Post by singin4free
Therefore, to be saved we must join ourselves not to earthly Israel
but to Yeshua the Messiah, by whom we become children of God and heirs
of the promises to Abraham.
Then why do you join yourself to the Pharisee and not Yehoshua?

Joh 6:53 [Yehoshua] יהושע therefore said to them, “Truly, truly, I say
to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Aḏam and drink His blood, you
possess no life in yourselves. 54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My
blood possesses everlasting life, and I shall raise him up in the last
day.
Exo 12:43 And יהוה [Yahweh] said to Mosheh and Aharon, “This is the
law of the Passover: No son of a stranger is to eat of it,
Exo 12:44 but any servant a man has bought for silver, when you have
circumcised him, then let him eat of it.


You have forgotten the fact that circumcision was the law of Passover
and in order to partake of the Flesh of Yehoshua, keeping the spirit
of the law was a requirement. Yehoshua was very clear on this subject
even if you like to live in denial.
Post by singin4free
as it was prophesied in Isaiah 2:3. But now,
"everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up
to the mountain of [Yahweh] יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of
Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach1 us His ways1, and let us walk in His
paths1, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah1, and the Word1 of
[Yahweh] יהוה from Yerushalayim.” Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the
teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously.

Your calling on a spirit whose name you have rejected.

Joh 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the
Father also does seek such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”

You have no idea who you worship and I'm sorry to be the one to inform
you of this truth.

Mal 2:1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you.
Mal 2:2 “If you do not hear, and if you do not take it to heart, to
give esteem to My Name,” said [Yahweh] יהוה of hosts, “I shall send a
curse upon you, and I shall curse your blessings. And indeed, I have
cursed them, because you do not take it to heart.
Mal 2:3 “See, I shall rebuke your seed, and scatter dung before your
faces, the dung of your festivals. And you shall be taken away with
it.

You do not recognize that you are the children of the curse spoken of
by Peter.

2Pe 2:14 having eyes filled with an adulteress, and unable to cease
from sin, enticing unstable beings, having a heart trained in greed,
children of a curse,

It's a truth you refuse to hear.. you can misquote and misrepresent
scriptures until your blue in the face my friend but that doesn't mean
it's the truth.

I wish you well in your walk of faith.

Jer 23:13 “And I have seen folly in the prophets of Shomeron: they
prophesied by Baʽal and led My people Yisra’ĕl astray.


H1167
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al
From H1166; a master; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often
used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense: LORD,
man, + married, master, person, + sworn, they of.

That’s right.. Ba’al means LORD as in:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God,

So, sitting right in front of every person is proof positive of the
prophecy come true even though it’s been sitting right in front of us
since at least 1611!

How often have you heard people address YHWH El-Shaddai as Lord? “My
Lord”.. how often do we hear this? The prophets told us that we would
call him by a false name “Lord” and that in the latter days we would
realize this fact.

Hos 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,” declares [Yahweh] יהוה, “that
you call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Baʽal.’
Hos 2:17 “And I shall remove the names of the Baʽals from her mouth,
and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

Hopefully for you, today is that day when you stop calling on the name
of “Lord” and start to recognize the true name of the creator!

Deu 32:3 “For I proclaim the Name of [Yahweh] יהוה, Ascribe greatness
to our Elohim.

His name is not Baal Gawd!

Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)

http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- join
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV_W.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James Version


“They use their tongues to
deceive you. Venom is on their lips.
Their mouths are full
of bitterness and curses.
The fear of God
is not before their eyes.
They have taken
the hearts and minds of our leaders.
They have blinded us to the truth.
Our human spirit is corrupted.
Why do we worship greed?
Outside the limit of our sight
they're feeding off us.
Perched on top of us
from birth to death, are our owners.
They have us. They control us.
They are our masters.
Wake up.
They're all around you.”

They Live by John Carpenter

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